This is a tough page to follow and to understand. I have to read it a few times and I wrote it!
The simplest way to describe “Fate” (for want of a better word) is to click on this link and enjoy: A Conversation on Fate.
Me: A few of my own thoughts on karma; kiz met; Fate: I don’t believe things happen for a reason. I think they just happen. I believe once we have been through something which has been a part of our lives for a certain amount of time, we develop and grow as a person. At the end of that part or our lives, we know it has ended but we have gained experience from it and can make sense of our actions, which makes it easier for us to assign a “reason” for it happening. If you “feel the need to work at something to make it happen”, it wasn’t in your karma. Surely if it was meant to happen, it would just happen without you trying for it. Also, if you think something was meant to be but you didn’t get it, by definition, it wasn’t meant to be. I do believe we can influence our paths by the decisions we make. Every decision has a consequence and depending on your wishes, we choose the path we feel is right. I try to make the decisions which point me to my final goal. I like an easy life so I try to make those choices which point me down the path of least resistance. Whatever I want to happen I try to make those choices which will eventually lead me to my desired outcome. One way of looking at that is there is no Fate but what we create. No? Lady Philosopher: I believe quite differently. I believe that we have free will, and therefore we do not have an unchangeable destiny. However, I do think that we each have a predetermined life goal. I think the life goal, being different for each of us, is one of the reasons that we are all so different in what we like and desire. I think that people who “know thyself” and follow what they know to be the right path, will find that things happen in life that get them toward their true will, that they never could have orchestrated. And people who live a false life, find constant obstacles and struggles. I think life will put those struggles in your way to get you back on your path, but you have the free will to ignore the clues. I don’t mean to imply that a path that is difficult is the wrong one. Not at all. But if you are on the right path, you know it, and your will burns strong like a constant flame. And you are fulfilled, and hence, you may have found your destiny. No? : )
Me: Who or what determines our life goal? And how do we know when we are on the right path? I suppose because we feel fulfilled. But all this is left to chance. You say we do not have an unchangeable destiny, a pre-determined life goal and that we are helped on our way by the obstacles redirecting us should we ever stray from the path chosen for us. The question remains: who chooses it? And how would a person know if they are ignoring the signs? Too complicated!!! It seems rather harsh to assume someone has had their murder predetermined and they chose the wrong clues to get them there from the obstacles thrown in their way. But they could have chosen not to be there. I think you are saying roughly what I was saying but emphasising a slightly different method. We are given choices. We make choices. They determine our goal. But to say the goal is predefined seems too “out of our hands”. I would prefer to think we make the choices ourselves based on where we want to be. If we make the wrong choice, another obstacle or opportunity comes along to give us another chance, but I would prefer to think WE create those opportunities too. Not that someone or thing intervened. What omniscient being is up there? I don’t believe any. I think things just happen and we can create reasoning from our experience, as we are sentient beings. Well, some of us are 🙂 We choose where we are and where we want to be. At least I would hope so, but then that may be influenced by the fact that I am a control freak and wouldn’t want to give up the notion of control to something as uncertain as chance! Do we need to take our own personality into account when debating the subject of Fate? To know one’s self is to know where one wants to be and therefore any decisions that have a bearing on the outcome of one’s life should not be made lightly, nor should it be assumed that things happen for a reason beyond our control. It would be too easy for people just to kick back and say “Que sera sera” and let life take them, if the path of least resistance was predetermined. I think accountability is a sub-subject of Fate and should be discussed first. Are we accountable for our own decisions? Are we accountable for the outcome of decisions? Are we accountable for our life’s path up to this point? I’d say we were. What would you say?
Her: Okay – I agree there is no predetermination. But I do believe that written in our true will, there is a life fulfilment that is aching to be played out. Like DNA, it is written within us, and it is our true desires. In that manner, we are not determined, yet we have a certain life path that we are predisposed or drawn to. We may ignore our inner callings. Most do. But I think a fulfilling life can only be achieved by discovering what that path is. What I think all of life comes down to – its bare elements – is energy. Nature is neutral. It has no judgment of good and bad, right and wrong. Therefore, it does not care the outcome of your life. Whatever will be will be. That is the stage onto which this game is played. But we are the creators. Onto this neutral pallet, we can use our energy to create things – intentionally or not. We create with our actions and with our thoughts. We channel that creative energy when we pray, or wish, or do magic ritual – all the same. (Or fear for that matter). Though the most powerful form of creation is action. You asked if we are to be held accountable? My answer is – yes. 100%. We create our lives. Yet, sometimes we need to be as neutral as nature when judging it. What do you think????
Me: So my life fulfilment is based upon what? If it is within each of us, how do we get it? Is like a personality? Do we inherit personalities from parents or are they created over time based on external factors? Is my life’s profound fulfilment based upon external factors, such as reading and learning and taking in my experience? Or, is it based upon something which is out of my control and which will be unlocked at a certain stage in my life, like a cancerous cell – it requires a catalyst.
I am pleased you agree we do not have a pre-determined outcome. But on the other hand, if it is not predetermined by “Fate” etc, who or what places this life fulfilment within us, like a DNA strand? It all comes back to the same question. Who or what governs our paths? If this life fulfilment is deep within us, urging to come out, pushing us towards our final life’s destiny…..this also suggests that the choices we mentioned above are unnecessary as the end will justify the means eventually. We will, by default, choose the correct choices to end up where we should be as determined by this DNA strand of Life fulfilment.
This then takes any conscious effort out of making choices and puts us back to the question of Fate being predetermined.
I don’t think anything in life is pre-determinable. Except death.
Someone told me that he thought life was like when he was travelling. He knew where he was and he knew where he wanted to end up (Quebec). The bit in between just happened and it always happened to point him in the right direction. Everything just fitted in with his plans and ultimately he reached his destination without much deviance from his path. I told him that the difference between that analogy and life, is that he knew where he wanted to be, whereas in life, we don’t know where we will be when we reach 60, so how do we know the path is taking us there without any deviance? We can only assume it is leading us down the correct path.
I would not like to take that chance. I do not want to reach 60 and think that I could have made it via a different route if only I had chosen the left fork and not the right fork. I don’t want those decisions made for me by “Fate” because that would suggest I am not in control again. I say, although he had his final destination in mind, he was still not in control because the path just “lead him there”.
Was he in control though, by ultimately knowing where he wanted to be?
What is Fate? I think it should be defined better.
Fate doesn’t exist as a concept. People blame their surroundings and external factors for their current state of being. They rely too heavily on Fate as a way of life because it’s easier than accepting responsibility for their actions. “Why blame me when I can blame the universe and everything in it?” Fate is a scapegoat.
Fate can be misinterpreted as “Character”.
Fate, I was told, takes away the relevancy of making those life-decisions. Fate is predetermined. Your Fate is laid out for you: nothing you can do about it.
So I ask: what is your “Fate”? Where do you want to be? Most people want to be happy. I ask are you happy. According to the above, if you are happy, you are assured to being on the correct path. One should look at work, home, relationships and childhood influences. If you are not happy with the above, does that mean you are not on the right path?
People hide behind the idea that they cannot change fundamentally, as a person, mainly because they don’t want to. But can you accept you could change over time? Have you changed fundamentally over the past ten years? If you can accept that you have changed your underlying self, could you change now – immediately? If you feel not, then ask yourself this: who is controlling your destiny? Who makes the decisions which currently affect your state of happiness? If you are not happy within yourself right now, what is stopping you from moving on in life? Why wouldn’t you want to make a positive change to ensure your happiness? Some people just sit back and accept that “That is the way I am”.
I would like to ask if you could change once you accept you are in control? I believe you control everything around you. Every decision you have made to bring you to this juncture has been made by you. You are in control. You chose to break up your marriage; you chose to be with your next lover. You choose where to be in the workplace right now. You choose to stay at home at night alone.
Why don’t people move on when they are influenced by philosophy? Why can’t they see that nothing is as difficult as it first seems when you realise things are easily controlled by your actions and choices?
What about people who are used to being restricted? What about those children who were not allowed away from their parent’s wing whilst growing up? Is it then a different interpretation due to the external influences? Would it be then ingrained in their personalities and make-up not to stray from the family influence?
Man has a tendency to blame external factors for his current state of being. Once we accept that external factors are not responsible for our current state and are simply symptoms of our own personality, you will be able to do anything you like. You could leave your previous life behind if you can accept it for what it was and understand you are in control. If we could understand that we are in total control, then anything forward of this point is our own responsibility. But one assumes it is easier to hold “Fate” responsible for one’s actions instead of one’s self.
We blame “Fate” for everything that has happened up to now and we point towards “Fate” being responsible for whatever will happen just so we don’t have to take responsibility for any current and future actions.
So when I ask: “What is Fate?” instead of saying it is a predetermined life path, our actual answer should be: “Myself”.
You are your own Fate. Fate is your ability to choose, not the end result of choice.
What do you think?
A question based around the above.
Me: Does the end result justify the means?
Does it matter why things happen?
Does it matter how they happen?
Should we just learn form the experience and move on?
Does it matter how it ended if the result was predetermined to be an end? Or do you get to the end result by any means necessary, irrespective of emotion and wants?
For example: If the end result (call it “Fate” if you will) is that “A” shall be with his wife and have children with her, which means she has to learn a very painful life lesson, then does it matter how they broke up or does it only matter that they broke up to justify the end result (him with her)?
As a consequence of this life lesson (but not the result of it), she has learned that she is not ready for another relationship because she is afraid of failure. Would it not be more accurate to say she has not yet learned the true meaning of the life lesson “Fate” has tried to teach her through her experience with “A”? If she is not yet ready to accept what life is teaching her, how can she move on?
If she can’t move on and she looses friends and lovers along the way, then so be it; who is actually making the choices to ignore the lessons from “Fate”?
If it was my destiny not to be with “N”, then although the end of our relationship was unpleasant for me, it was necessary to ensure she pursued her own destiny with “S” and I pursued mine with whomever.
I thought that she would be my “Fate”. And she is but in a different way to what I and she expected. But I noticed that she had done everything in her power (every choice, every opportunity, every obstacle) to ensure I am precluded from her future, so I can only assume she does not believe we are “Fated” to be together.
So no matter how hard I try, I am not fighting “Fate”: I am fighting her.
Once again, she is “Fate”.
So, does the end result justify the means? I have spent 6 months trying to be with her. She has spent 6 months trying not to be with me and she has won.
She has not learned from the lesson life has tried to teach her with the “A” experience. I have only just learned from the lesson life taught me regarding “N”: no matter how hard I want something, if it wasn’t meant to be, I can’t force it.
Should I accept the means (her actions and choices) as simply the process to the end result of us not being together and as “Fate’s” final attempt to make me learn this valuable lesson?
A life lesson forced upon “D” but one important lesson learned for “P”:
You are “Fate” for more than just you. You are my Fate too.
What if the choices I make are adversely affecting the outcome of my destiny?
What I mean is: what if I am trying too hard to make something happen and it is adversely affecting my chances of it actually happening?
Maybe I should be doing the exact opposite of what my head (heart) is saying and let “Fate” take its course.
Is it conceivable that one can actually work against one’s own “Fate” by making the choices which prevent certain things from happening? Lady Philosopher said (above) that you know you are on the right path because it all seems easy. If this is not easy then maybe I am not making the right choices to lead me down my path of least resistance and to my true destiny!
Why would I not see this when I believe we are responsible for our own choices and destiny? Would the fact that I do not want to lose something or someone prevent me from seeing things clearly? Would it also influence my choices which are actually pushing that person or thing away from me? Why would “Fate” allow that if one believes something is “meant to be”?
These are very difficult questions.
Do you see? What do you think?
I believe life is as easy as you want to make it. Or as complicated, obviously. If you make your life easy, it will feel right, therefore Lady Philosopher has a point, although I do not agree with her intrinsically.
I hope all this makes sense and I haven’t come across as arrogant or conceited. That’s not my intention. Tell me what you think. Read the other conversation too.